It seems this is confirming what is known, which is not unimportant. But, more importantly it begs the question of the degree to which who desists or not is predictable. If it isn't, as the testimony of formerly dysphoric grownups who are very glad that gender affirmers weren't around in their youth confirms, it is malpractice to medicalize transition or even to encourage social transition because it's a path to irreversible medicalization.
I suspect Hilary Cass's advice to youth to "Keep your options open" will soon be a catch-phrase.
Dude, that's why, barring extreme medical circumstances, no one encourages medical transitions for children. I dont know why you clowns think you know more than hundreds of medical associations around the world.
Show me your degree, and/or find me a single case of a child being forced into a sex change. Make your case. Please.
If children are being abused, you have a duty to protect them by making these cases known and bringing charges of medical malpractice against these people. So please, do it.
Thanks for your contrary view. The two sides of this controversy spend too much time in an echo chamber. You are braver than the AAP which wouldn't respond to New York Times questions on the Cass Review.
Are you my wife under a pseudonym? She would tell me there are few adolescents being medically and surgically transitioned and nearly all of those are happy with getting what they have so ardently wished for. What they wished for or should have been informed to expect were dramatic and to varying degrees irreversible results of hormonal and surgical treatment. Those people likely have a long life ahead of them needing medical care to monitor those changes. What should raise the caution flag is that the medical necessity and/or benefit of this treatment is entirely psychological, that is, in the mind. That's why Hilary Cass, the former head of the Royal College of Pediatrics and author of the NHS report documenting a cavalier attitude towards medicalization of trans kids in the UK, advises young people believing they have a gender in the wrong body to "keep your options open" because there is no going back and it's in your head. On top of all that the vast majority who feel this way get over it following puberty and a little time on earth.
Here's an interesting question. If the docs know how to correctly select people who won't regret being trans for transition how does that comport with the gender affirmation diagnostic procedure. I'm going to let someone else list cases, but, I think gender affirmation has led to a lot of mistakes, unnecessary mistakes if the kid had been advised to keep their options open and tried a therapist. They can find a good one at Genspect.
Many "medical associations all over the world" have preceded the UK in minimizing transition. One exception seems to be Iran where sexual transition allows homosexuals to stay out of prison or worse. The other exceptions are the U.S. and Canada.
I suggest that for Pride Month we go back to simple virtues like the proposition that all men are created equal and stay away from risky and unnecessary gender medicine and accept that if we think sex segregation is important in certain circumstances, it undermines the whole point of that if people can just choose their sex.
Addendum: They are not just getting what they wished for but what they were told by gender affirming clinicians and teachers and counselors would cure their dissatisfactions.
I am someone who is not in an ideological echo chamber but someone on the ground who has actually seen the mental health system and methods used for adolescents. I can tell you that at least in one major US city, adolescent girls well under the age of 18 who are in extreme psychological distress and have multiple complicating factors that people assume would cause any doctor or therapist to hesitate and move slowly, cautiously, and with consideration of these other causes are in fact rushed into being told they should take whatever steps they can to medicalize with testosterone as soon as possible. At least in some areas of the US, the kind of caution and "only in rare and extreme cases" that that people of good faith who want to trust the system is working are not actually the norm. There is great irony (and tragedy) in the fact that the same people who will insist that the system is set up so that only the most extreme and ideal adolescent cases get medical interventions are the same who will call the procedures and processes that tell all the rest of these cases "no, this is not the right treatment or even diagnosis for you," gatekeeping, transphobic, hateful, or even genocidal.
As for the comment saying people who have been mistreated under this system had better be filing complaints and lawsuits - I suggest that anyone suggesting this and relying on these as safeguarding procedures to actually go through these processes themselves and see how difficult, costly, challenging and prohibitive they are and how often they are dead ends not because you don't have a case, but because of how the systems are set up.
Umm...not being in an echo chamber means reading a variety of people with a variety of perspectives. This is one of many things I've read. I get other perspectives from reading sites like NPR, WaPo, NYT, Vox, etc. I can read accounts by people happy with transition (I have) and people unhappy. Not being in an echo chamber means I'm on different sites, including this one.
None of what you've listed are peer reviewed scientific studies. You've stated a bunch of anecdotal evidence and then listed news and opinion websites. How did you find this website specifically?
@safewhitespace 2 years ago, my adolescent son was strongly encouraged to medically transition by three licensed therapists and a medical provider at a well-known adolescent medicine practice in our area. As a medical provider myself, I continually see young people (age 12 and up) being encouraged to socially and medically transition- to live "authentically", while comorbid psychiatric conditions are ignored. I do not support this approach, yet am surrounded by colleagues who do. Oddly, my colleagues who support this approach do not have children who are gender dysphoric.
It seems alot like a medical insurance industry is trying to remove coverage of a type of medical treatment. Also, why is social transition so dangerous? The fact that people want to reinforce the gender binary is the problem. If people stopped imposing their own binary gender ideology on their children then the children probably wouldn't feel the need to transition because they would feel comfortable just being themselves.
Ok. I don't have the brief against social transition handy, but, I have this good question. Why isn't performing as the opposite sex reinforcing the gender binary, meaning stereotypes? It may be harmless, but, it's also not the liberation gender-bending enthusiasts make it out to be.
Your assumption that every trans person conforms to the gender binary is incorrect, people are multi faceted. Hence why there are a multitude of non-binary gender identities. But this whole argument is premised on mysoginy, putting aside the NB trans people for a moment, some trans people identify as women and love being a "girly girl", others identify as women and love being a "Tom boy", your perception of them being a stereotype is based on your own assumptions about how a woman should be. Does wearing dresses and makeup mean I'm reinforcing a stereotype? Perhaps it's just because you view women in a superficial way without recognising the depth of the variation in character and personality that women have? How many close platonic friendships do you have with women? The whole argument that trans women (and trans men, although they aren't brought up nearly as often in this context) are playing into a stereotype is based on a totally superficial understanding of trans women, and more broadly all women. Ask a trans woman you are friends with why they wear dresses or makeup, you might be surprised at the answer. I personally wear eye makeup because it's freaking fabulous, all the rest of my make up is to avoid people harrasing me for being trans. I'd love to not use it at all, but sadly when I do the harassment is unbearable. Also I would probably wear pants considerably more if I hadn't been told my whole life I'm not allowed to wear a dress. The things that you see as stereotypically women's ways of presenting is based on the way society sees women. Why don't more men wear make up or paint their nails or have earrings or wear dresses? I know some that would love to if it didn't mean they would be harassed, and if society had a broader view on the way people could present themselves and those men did those things suddenly trans women don't look like a stereotype of a woman do they? And what pray tell is a gender-bending enthusiast?
Why do you think genspect have the correct answers and not some other group? How much do you know about the person running that website who makes money by selling GC books? Why does she know more than anyone else, say other medical professionals who research and work with trans people? The document you linked doesn't reference specific evidence for their recommendations. Seems odd for members of a so called evidence based medicine group. Almost like they might not have any....
Thank you for this hope! We have a 21 year old son, who quite suddenly decided he was transgender in the last year during a relationship with a girl who we feel led him down the garden path - and he has recently started estrogen therapy. Our son is on the autism spectrum (mild and high-functioning, more Asperger now as he’s gotten older), is being treated for bipolar, ADHD, and unspecified tic disorder/possible Tourette’s - which is in line with the research we have been reading. Of course, with him now being an adult, we no longer have any say in his medical care, and anything we do or say will cause him to further dig his heels in and go in the opposite direction. It has been exceedingly difficult and heartbreaking to see your child suddenly change course and go down this path and feel helpless as our child seems hell-bent on this, and is disregarding the health risks, as well as further mental health risks, knowing that in the long run, taking estrogen or transitioning in any way is going to “fix” the problem, and we are just praying that the transgender illusions come to an end - because the mental and medical health professionals don’t dare not “affirm” his care due to this madness. Why is gender dysphoria the only mental illness in the DSM-5 where the only treatment is “affirmation”?
But “gender dysphoria” or “transgender” or “gender identity” does not.
A male who “feels like” he’s female is suffering from a deeper problem, and this is just a symptom. He remains male, even if he takes estrogen, even if he gets surgery, and even if he passes (the vast majority never will).
There is no special category for someone who refuses to accept the reality of their sexed body.
Gender Identity Disorder does exist, but it is so rare that it really has nothing to do with the gender ideology cult. People with GID don't interrupt meetings at their workplaces to change the topic to their pronouns and "gender identities."
All the studies that we read pointing out the essential falseness of "gender ideology" come from Europe. While in the United States, to dispute even one of the nuttiest of GI's biological claims is a great way to lose one's job.
It's going to take a long time to excise this tumor from America, given the amount of money involved and the indoctrination of so many who believe that anything short of complete acceptance is bigotry, even when acceptance means murtilated bodies and destroyed lives.
First, "gender identity disorder" is not even the term that's in the DSM at the moment. It's "gender dysphoria." And they're going to change it to "gender incongruence" soon. None of these terms mean anything because they don't exist anyway. These are political terms reflecting the political zeitgeist and who is influencing the APA with money. They're not real.
Second, you're going to have to define "gender." What is a "gender identity"? Go ahead and explain. I'll wait. It's going to sound stupid no matter what you try because if you're going to try to claim that a man can "feel like" he's a woman, you have to define what a man is, what a woman is, and how a man can "feel like" he's a woman. Try it.
Third, if "gender identity disorder" is "rare" (in your terms) that means you think there's a tiny percentage of REAL troons who are actually delusional, not just pretending. How many per year? Based on what criteria? That's the "true tranny" test. Explain how you know. How come this doesn't apply to anorexics--a tiny percentage of REAL anorexics who should get liposuction? Or Rachel Dolezal is a tiny percentage of REAL people who "feel like" they're black? What's the difference?
If you concede that "gender identity disorder" does exist, that means you cannot stop it. Where tf does the "gender ideology" come from then?
There is no such thing. Autism exists. Schizophrenia exists. Porn addiction exists. Autogynephilia exists.
"Gender identity" does not. It's not "rare." It's nonexistent. Saying one is in the wrong body is a symptom of something deeper, it's not a reality or a condition or anything else.
Rachel Dolezal did not have two black grandparents. So that racial analogy falls apart at the start. We all have, presumably, two male and two female grandparents. Effectively, by heredity, we're half-and-half. We may not like that, but that's how it is.
"Gender Dysphoria" is the old diagnostic term for transsexualism popularized by Norman Lask in 1973 but actually in use at least since the late 1960s. "Gender Identity Disorder" means something rather different. It was a term used by Ken Zucker to describe gender-nonconforming children. As few of these turned out to be transsexual, it's really useless in the discussion.
GD or transsexualism remains very rare, and there is no reason to believe it has increased significantly in the past 30 or 40 years. Somebody surveyed the number of name and sex changes registered in the Social Security Administration in America, and as of maybe ten years ago the rate was still about 1/11,000. That's so rare it's unlikely most of us will ever knowingly know someone going through this.
We might however see a lot of talk about it in the media, and see a lot of faddists and "weekend hippies" appropriating this condition...because maybe they think it's cool? You be the judge!
...AND I think that's pretty much what you were getting at, right?
"Gender dysphoria" is NOT the old diagnostic term. It's the CURRENT term.
Define "gender." How is it different from sex? I'll wait.
A few turned out to be "transexual." Wtf does that mean? What's "transexual" as opposed to "gender dysphoria"? They're interchangeable now?
What's "gender-nonconforming"? Wtf does that even mean?
Rare? 1/11,000? Based on what test? What criteria is being used here? And now there's a spike because just a few are faking? BASED ON WHAT CRITERIA? What is the test?
You have no clue what you're even talking about. You use terms that you don't even see mean absolutely nothing.
Rachel Dolezal says she "feels black." How is that any different from a man saying he "feels like" he's a woman? Why are you defending one as RARE, while she's just crazy and nobody "affirms" it?
This is pathetic.
And btw, no that's not what I'm getting at. Rachel Dolezal isn't black. And Bruce Jenner has XY chromosomes. He's not female and it doesn't matter how he feels about it. Same thing. End of story.
Excuse me. Gender Dysphoria IS the old diagnostic term, commonly used 50 years ago. I guess it sounded nicer than transsexualism. It was used in New York and at Stanford. I don't know where you were or if you had any relevant clinical experience. Maybe try reading textbooks of the period?
Transsexualism and Gender Dysphoria are essentially interchangeable terms. Years ago one had more of a stigma. Why do you suppose that is?
Gender-nonconforming is the safe, non-pejorative term for little children who don't act like what you think their typical sex roles should be. Ken Zucker used this to describe his "Gender Identity Disorder" in the DSM.
The 1/11,000 stat is based on figures from the Social Security Administration. As I wrote. It was done over ten years ago. I can find you a link for the study. Feel free to do an update. I doubt yours will be much different; rare conditions do not increase a hundredfold in a decade...unless we're talking about a new toxic waste zone!
Rachel Dolezal does not have any negro parents or grandparents. Everyone has male and female parents and grandparents. Is that simple enough?
You don't know Jenner's karyotype so don't pretend you do.
I think if it’s true that those who may begin showing signs of being confused about their sexual identity also have other mental issues, it may be they are struggling to find a way too cope with pressure of outside forces who judge them in every possible way. If they read some of this discussion no wonder they run away from the influences of all of them once they are of age and can make their own decisions. I don’t have answers but I do know society snarling at them is not going to work and that is what is occurring and will cause a lot of tragedy as a result.
I am so sorry. This is such a painful thing for parents. Our almost 19 year old son expressed his gender distress 2 1/2 years ago. He has not taken any hormones. His social transition is only online. He hasn’t announced it broadly. So we are hopeful. But aware of what a slippery slope this is.
It is a very slippery slope. We have hope as other countries are beginning to reject it vehemently- but the US remains an outlier - the question is WHY?
Because the lion's share of American medicine is private and thus less subject to the whims of an ignorant, politicized bureaucracy. That's the positive side. The negative side is that Obamacare encouraged inexperienced clinicians to take up a specialty they don't understand and to irresponsibly offer services merely because insurance covers them. It's like dentists all trying to offer veneers and implants.
Same boat - opposite sexes - my daughter fell in love with a young man who believes he is a woman instead of a creative, gentle soul in a man’s body. Now my daughter is turning into the male in looks and hormones. You are not alone.
Nobody has a “gender identity” because it simply does not exist.
A male who “feels like” he’s female is suffering from a deeper problem which actually exists—autogynephilia, autism, depression, porn addiction. These men remain male because sex is binary and immutable.
There is no special category for those who refuse the reality of their sexed bodies. This is untreated mental illness, not a reality.
It shouldn’t be “affirmed” because it’s delusion. Nothing more.
I keep wondering how we are to make any sense at all of some male's assertion that he "feels like a woman" when he cannot possibly have any basis for identifying whatever it is he's feeling as "like a woman". I grew up in a stable, two parent, one of each, white working class family with no more than its fair share of rough patches. If, out of the blue, I claimed I "knew" what Black boys growing up in an impoverished, dysfunctional female headed single parent home in a crime ridden neighborhood might need, I'd be laughed out of the room. And rightly so.
This is the most sensible perspective. I am autistic. I never felt 'feminine' or 'masculine' but I did not have the childhood interests or proclivities most of the females around me did. Didn't play with dolls, preferred my brother's meccano to any dolls. No interest in Barbie. As an adolescent, loved sci-fi, star trek and was highly impressionable. Got behind new ideas 100%, based on crowd enthusiasm. From my perspective as a 60 year old, realize I am mildly autistic based on a lifetime of experience and how I respond to situations.No doubt would have been sucked into this whole scene, thank god it didn't exist back then. Vested interests. Useful idiots.
Thats so much to take from "outpatient billing data."
Can you explain what data was taken and how it was analyzed?
Your veneer of credibility (and the study's) drops further when you consider that most of your stats are just truisms. Of course gender dysphoria is being diagnosed at a higher rate than before. That doesn't mean in any way that there are more transpeople (by % of population) than before. It just means we recognize the condition and can diagnose it.
Would you really argue that PTSD is becoming more prevelant? Or would you consider that we've only been calling it ptsd for 40 years?
Would you say someone never had ptsd because they received treatment and recovered? I dont think you goons recognize that so much of gender affirming care concerns helping the person acertain how they feel and where their dysphoria originates from. No one is trying to convince anyone that they are trans. If anything, its the exact opposite. Y'all need to grow up.
I'm surprised to learn that affirming care is about finding the origin of gender dysphoria. Then how is it compatible with hormone treatments and surgery? Is it not a confirmation instead of an investigation of the origin of the problem?
I phrased that weird. What I should have said was "so much of gender affirming care is concerned with helping the person acertain and better understand how they feel. In some states, this involves speaking to psychologists and psychiatrists for hours. In the pursuit of understanding, sometimes a patient's gender dysphoria does get a "confirmation," as you put it. Sometimes it doesn't. I'm not really sure why I wrote "originates from" to be honest.
That being said, what do you mean by "Then how is it compatible with hormone treatments and surgery?"
I mean that these interventions are not mere Investigations...
Helping people understand how they feel is indeed very different than investigating where their feelings and thought come from ( and how they maintain themselves overtime).
I think we will all agree that feelings and emotions are not necessarily valid, true , or worth such radical social and physical interventions. So I was hoping there were indeed therapists who helped unroot such false thoughts when it comes to gender. But I obviously misunderstood you.
Who are you to call them false thoughts? What we all agree on is that some feelings and emotions are necessarily true and valid and worth very radical change. Next time you need a broken bone fixed, or need to get your eyes adjusted, don't. Those are just your feelings.
A human being like you. We are exchanging ideas here. I think the burden is on you to demonstrate that a person who is obviously a male for instance has a healthy thinking if he thinks he is a female. There's no way a chicken thinking he is a cat is thinking right. I'm not saying this because I can't understand, I can understand. I've been confused about my gender myself ( by the way someone even pointed to me today that I have a masculine energy, though I am a woman, that goes to say I had "reasons" to be confused). But I had to conform my thinking to the truth eventually.
PS : I don't think I understand the experience of every single person that experiences such thoughts and feelings. I just say that there is an objective and outside truth that can help cut through our thoughts.
Children can no more "consent" to have their healthy breasts and genitalia removed or take puberty blockers than they can
"consent" to have sex with an adult.
Similarly, parents and doctors can no more approve such permanent mutilation simply because a minor child desires it than they can approve pedophilia.
Ultimately society will see the truth and ban the practice as we have banned female genital mutilation. Do people support that practice if the parents consent? I truly hope not
It is monstrous to believe otherwise and those who do will ultimately be held to account for their actions.
But we have no issue believing they can and do give consent to other things, like breast augmentation at 16, with their parent's permission? Or a navel, nose, or other piercing? Even a tattoo, which has far greater regret rates than gender-affirming care (which does not always involve surgery, and almost never on a minor) Or when they need their appendix removed, or other procedures? Because they can give or withhold their assent, and the parents can give or withhold a legal informed consent. If a minor at 16, after a few meetings with their doctors and parents, persistently an repeatedly refuses to give their consent to a minor, non-life threatening procedure, everyone is pretty much gonna have to wait. The autonomy of the individual is respected and preserved. The older the minor is, the more this carries weight. The exception to this is if the if the treatment is deemed medically necessary and delaying or forgoing it would pose significant risks to the minor's health or well-being, then they can be overruled, for obvious reasons.
This is in no way comparable to FGM, in which the minor has no ability to deny the practice, their consent/assent is not even considered, and if they try to run from it or deny it, they will be physically forced to have it performed. Furthermore, FGM serves no medical benefit to the young person involved and carries great risk.
This is a false equivalence coupled with loaded language.
Thank you for sharing this! It’s the start of changing lives. I’m hoping to package this up for the affirming therapist that my ex has brainwashing my daughter. Keep it up . Some of us will win ♥️
The AAP exists to promote and protect the interests of doctors. It is not a patient advocacy organization. Their primary interest will be protecting its members and the organization itself from lawsuits. If anyone is reading the Cass report and WPATH files, it is their lawyers looking for how to use what's in them to defend themselves against any legal liability.
One of the (many) issues with this ongoing challenge is that the people pushing for radical changes didn’t take the brains plasticity in youth into account.
The brain is opportunistically plastic during our youth and changes enormously over the course of its first two decades.
Making drastic and irreversible physical changes didn’t account for brain development.
Gender Identity Disorder is usually no more than GNC. It has nothing to do with transsexualism (or Gender Dysphoria, as it was called 50 years ago). It's about as relevant here as saying most people outgrow acne.
No. Thing is, GID was applied mostly to children (it's a Ken Zucker diagnosis) whereas actual full-blown Gender Dysphoria (which really means transsexualism, NOT some kind of "discomfort" with one's "gender") cannot be diagnosed in children.
A moment's thought: you have 50 children in the room who are under the age of 10 and gender-nonconforming. How do you distinguish those who will end changing sex? You can't, and it's probably harmful to do so. It's even worse than saying that little kids are going to grow up to be gay. Let me go a step further: if there are kids around who are going to change sex, they're probably not even in the room, because their whole life revolves around hiding this fact.
Gender nonconformity is simple and usually harmless and anyone can do it. It's a stretch to call it a disorder. It is what it is, and doesn't mean anything else.
How do place the scale between gender discomfort and transsexualism. At one point does it become transsexualism? I'm not sure if you have the answer to that question but I am curious. Can we say both are the same phenomenon but one is reinforced and maintains itself over time while the other disappears?
This study should sit next to be WPATH files and the Cass report. These 3 documents must must must be made more available. People voting in the elections in the UK must ask the questions about gender to have confirmation from ALL parties about their political stance!
Interesting, if unsurprising. Thanks for making us aware of this study. Any idea what percentage of study subjects were lost to follow-up? (Many desisters simply stop seeing providers and thus billing insurance, so how would this study capture them? ) Also, being on the autism spectrum is consistently mentioned among co-morbidities, and I assume it was one of the conditions German researchers also identified.
This study doesn't differentiate people who had treatment or not. How many of the people that are no longer experiencing gender dysmorphia had treatment compared to those that "grew out of it"?
This is a missing piece for an accurate assessment.
I know more and more European countries are banning any medical procedures related to gender, for minors. It's starting to happen here in certain states. My best friend was a tom boy growing up. I talked to her recently and she said she probably would have tried to transition especially since in some places like NYC which is where we grew up, it's encouraged. Thanks for sharing. The more ppl understand it can truly be a phase, the better chance they won't make an irreversible decision that will have them in and out of hospitals and shorten their lives. Sabrinalabow.substack.com
It seems this is confirming what is known, which is not unimportant. But, more importantly it begs the question of the degree to which who desists or not is predictable. If it isn't, as the testimony of formerly dysphoric grownups who are very glad that gender affirmers weren't around in their youth confirms, it is malpractice to medicalize transition or even to encourage social transition because it's a path to irreversible medicalization.
I suspect Hilary Cass's advice to youth to "Keep your options open" will soon be a catch-phrase.
Dude, that's why, barring extreme medical circumstances, no one encourages medical transitions for children. I dont know why you clowns think you know more than hundreds of medical associations around the world.
Show me your degree, and/or find me a single case of a child being forced into a sex change. Make your case. Please.
If children are being abused, you have a duty to protect them by making these cases known and bringing charges of medical malpractice against these people. So please, do it.
Thanks for your contrary view. The two sides of this controversy spend too much time in an echo chamber. You are braver than the AAP which wouldn't respond to New York Times questions on the Cass Review.
Are you my wife under a pseudonym? She would tell me there are few adolescents being medically and surgically transitioned and nearly all of those are happy with getting what they have so ardently wished for. What they wished for or should have been informed to expect were dramatic and to varying degrees irreversible results of hormonal and surgical treatment. Those people likely have a long life ahead of them needing medical care to monitor those changes. What should raise the caution flag is that the medical necessity and/or benefit of this treatment is entirely psychological, that is, in the mind. That's why Hilary Cass, the former head of the Royal College of Pediatrics and author of the NHS report documenting a cavalier attitude towards medicalization of trans kids in the UK, advises young people believing they have a gender in the wrong body to "keep your options open" because there is no going back and it's in your head. On top of all that the vast majority who feel this way get over it following puberty and a little time on earth.
Here's an interesting question. If the docs know how to correctly select people who won't regret being trans for transition how does that comport with the gender affirmation diagnostic procedure. I'm going to let someone else list cases, but, I think gender affirmation has led to a lot of mistakes, unnecessary mistakes if the kid had been advised to keep their options open and tried a therapist. They can find a good one at Genspect.
Many "medical associations all over the world" have preceded the UK in minimizing transition. One exception seems to be Iran where sexual transition allows homosexuals to stay out of prison or worse. The other exceptions are the U.S. and Canada.
I suggest that for Pride Month we go back to simple virtues like the proposition that all men are created equal and stay away from risky and unnecessary gender medicine and accept that if we think sex segregation is important in certain circumstances, it undermines the whole point of that if people can just choose their sex.
Addendum: They are not just getting what they wished for but what they were told by gender affirming clinicians and teachers and counselors would cure their dissatisfactions.
I am someone who is not in an ideological echo chamber but someone on the ground who has actually seen the mental health system and methods used for adolescents. I can tell you that at least in one major US city, adolescent girls well under the age of 18 who are in extreme psychological distress and have multiple complicating factors that people assume would cause any doctor or therapist to hesitate and move slowly, cautiously, and with consideration of these other causes are in fact rushed into being told they should take whatever steps they can to medicalize with testosterone as soon as possible. At least in some areas of the US, the kind of caution and "only in rare and extreme cases" that that people of good faith who want to trust the system is working are not actually the norm. There is great irony (and tragedy) in the fact that the same people who will insist that the system is set up so that only the most extreme and ideal adolescent cases get medical interventions are the same who will call the procedures and processes that tell all the rest of these cases "no, this is not the right treatment or even diagnosis for you," gatekeeping, transphobic, hateful, or even genocidal.
As for the comment saying people who have been mistreated under this system had better be filing complaints and lawsuits - I suggest that anyone suggesting this and relying on these as safeguarding procedures to actually go through these processes themselves and see how difficult, costly, challenging and prohibitive they are and how often they are dead ends not because you don't have a case, but because of how the systems are set up.
You're not in an echo chamber? How did you find this website?
Umm...not being in an echo chamber means reading a variety of people with a variety of perspectives. This is one of many things I've read. I get other perspectives from reading sites like NPR, WaPo, NYT, Vox, etc. I can read accounts by people happy with transition (I have) and people unhappy. Not being in an echo chamber means I'm on different sites, including this one.
None of what you've listed are peer reviewed scientific studies. You've stated a bunch of anecdotal evidence and then listed news and opinion websites. How did you find this website specifically?
Prove it.
Clementine Wooleysocks:
@safewhitespace 2 years ago, my adolescent son was strongly encouraged to medically transition by three licensed therapists and a medical provider at a well-known adolescent medicine practice in our area. As a medical provider myself, I continually see young people (age 12 and up) being encouraged to socially and medically transition- to live "authentically", while comorbid psychiatric conditions are ignored. I do not support this approach, yet am surrounded by colleagues who do. Oddly, my colleagues who support this approach do not have children who are gender dysphoric.
Did you imagine I'd take your anecdontal story over worldwide medical consensus?
I agree. This sounds more like oppression is resulting in their simply going underground because they can no longer take the crap being flung at them.
that’s simply not true.
It seems alot like a medical insurance industry is trying to remove coverage of a type of medical treatment. Also, why is social transition so dangerous? The fact that people want to reinforce the gender binary is the problem. If people stopped imposing their own binary gender ideology on their children then the children probably wouldn't feel the need to transition because they would feel comfortable just being themselves.
Ok. I don't have the brief against social transition handy, but, I have this good question. Why isn't performing as the opposite sex reinforcing the gender binary, meaning stereotypes? It may be harmless, but, it's also not the liberation gender-bending enthusiasts make it out to be.
Your assumption that every trans person conforms to the gender binary is incorrect, people are multi faceted. Hence why there are a multitude of non-binary gender identities. But this whole argument is premised on mysoginy, putting aside the NB trans people for a moment, some trans people identify as women and love being a "girly girl", others identify as women and love being a "Tom boy", your perception of them being a stereotype is based on your own assumptions about how a woman should be. Does wearing dresses and makeup mean I'm reinforcing a stereotype? Perhaps it's just because you view women in a superficial way without recognising the depth of the variation in character and personality that women have? How many close platonic friendships do you have with women? The whole argument that trans women (and trans men, although they aren't brought up nearly as often in this context) are playing into a stereotype is based on a totally superficial understanding of trans women, and more broadly all women. Ask a trans woman you are friends with why they wear dresses or makeup, you might be surprised at the answer. I personally wear eye makeup because it's freaking fabulous, all the rest of my make up is to avoid people harrasing me for being trans. I'd love to not use it at all, but sadly when I do the harassment is unbearable. Also I would probably wear pants considerably more if I hadn't been told my whole life I'm not allowed to wear a dress. The things that you see as stereotypically women's ways of presenting is based on the way society sees women. Why don't more men wear make up or paint their nails or have earrings or wear dresses? I know some that would love to if it didn't mean they would be harassed, and if society had a broader view on the way people could present themselves and those men did those things suddenly trans women don't look like a stereotype of a woman do they? And what pray tell is a gender-bending enthusiast?
This is Genspect's advice on social transition which not surprisingly concerned with young people and schools and as usual nuanced. https://genspect.org/resources/guidance/guidance-for-social-transition/
Why do you think genspect have the correct answers and not some other group? How much do you know about the person running that website who makes money by selling GC books? Why does she know more than anyone else, say other medical professionals who research and work with trans people? The document you linked doesn't reference specific evidence for their recommendations. Seems odd for members of a so called evidence based medicine group. Almost like they might not have any....
^this
Thank you for this hope! We have a 21 year old son, who quite suddenly decided he was transgender in the last year during a relationship with a girl who we feel led him down the garden path - and he has recently started estrogen therapy. Our son is on the autism spectrum (mild and high-functioning, more Asperger now as he’s gotten older), is being treated for bipolar, ADHD, and unspecified tic disorder/possible Tourette’s - which is in line with the research we have been reading. Of course, with him now being an adult, we no longer have any say in his medical care, and anything we do or say will cause him to further dig his heels in and go in the opposite direction. It has been exceedingly difficult and heartbreaking to see your child suddenly change course and go down this path and feel helpless as our child seems hell-bent on this, and is disregarding the health risks, as well as further mental health risks, knowing that in the long run, taking estrogen or transitioning in any way is going to “fix” the problem, and we are just praying that the transgender illusions come to an end - because the mental and medical health professionals don’t dare not “affirm” his care due to this madness. Why is gender dysphoria the only mental illness in the DSM-5 where the only treatment is “affirmation”?
“Gender dysphoria” does not exist.
Autism exists. Porn addiction exists. Autogynephilia exists.
But “gender dysphoria” or “transgender” or “gender identity” does not.
A male who “feels like” he’s female is suffering from a deeper problem, and this is just a symptom. He remains male, even if he takes estrogen, even if he gets surgery, and even if he passes (the vast majority never will).
There is no special category for someone who refuses to accept the reality of their sexed body.
Gender Identity Disorder does exist, but it is so rare that it really has nothing to do with the gender ideology cult. People with GID don't interrupt meetings at their workplaces to change the topic to their pronouns and "gender identities."
All the studies that we read pointing out the essential falseness of "gender ideology" come from Europe. While in the United States, to dispute even one of the nuttiest of GI's biological claims is a great way to lose one's job.
It's going to take a long time to excise this tumor from America, given the amount of money involved and the indoctrination of so many who believe that anything short of complete acceptance is bigotry, even when acceptance means murtilated bodies and destroyed lives.
No. Absolutely not.
First, "gender identity disorder" is not even the term that's in the DSM at the moment. It's "gender dysphoria." And they're going to change it to "gender incongruence" soon. None of these terms mean anything because they don't exist anyway. These are political terms reflecting the political zeitgeist and who is influencing the APA with money. They're not real.
Second, you're going to have to define "gender." What is a "gender identity"? Go ahead and explain. I'll wait. It's going to sound stupid no matter what you try because if you're going to try to claim that a man can "feel like" he's a woman, you have to define what a man is, what a woman is, and how a man can "feel like" he's a woman. Try it.
Third, if "gender identity disorder" is "rare" (in your terms) that means you think there's a tiny percentage of REAL troons who are actually delusional, not just pretending. How many per year? Based on what criteria? That's the "true tranny" test. Explain how you know. How come this doesn't apply to anorexics--a tiny percentage of REAL anorexics who should get liposuction? Or Rachel Dolezal is a tiny percentage of REAL people who "feel like" they're black? What's the difference?
If you concede that "gender identity disorder" does exist, that means you cannot stop it. Where tf does the "gender ideology" come from then?
There is no such thing. Autism exists. Schizophrenia exists. Porn addiction exists. Autogynephilia exists.
"Gender identity" does not. It's not "rare." It's nonexistent. Saying one is in the wrong body is a symptom of something deeper, it's not a reality or a condition or anything else.
Rachel Dolezal did not have two black grandparents. So that racial analogy falls apart at the start. We all have, presumably, two male and two female grandparents. Effectively, by heredity, we're half-and-half. We may not like that, but that's how it is.
"Gender Dysphoria" is the old diagnostic term for transsexualism popularized by Norman Lask in 1973 but actually in use at least since the late 1960s. "Gender Identity Disorder" means something rather different. It was a term used by Ken Zucker to describe gender-nonconforming children. As few of these turned out to be transsexual, it's really useless in the discussion.
GD or transsexualism remains very rare, and there is no reason to believe it has increased significantly in the past 30 or 40 years. Somebody surveyed the number of name and sex changes registered in the Social Security Administration in America, and as of maybe ten years ago the rate was still about 1/11,000. That's so rare it's unlikely most of us will ever knowingly know someone going through this.
We might however see a lot of talk about it in the media, and see a lot of faddists and "weekend hippies" appropriating this condition...because maybe they think it's cool? You be the judge!
...AND I think that's pretty much what you were getting at, right?
What?
"Gender dysphoria" is NOT the old diagnostic term. It's the CURRENT term.
Define "gender." How is it different from sex? I'll wait.
A few turned out to be "transexual." Wtf does that mean? What's "transexual" as opposed to "gender dysphoria"? They're interchangeable now?
What's "gender-nonconforming"? Wtf does that even mean?
Rare? 1/11,000? Based on what test? What criteria is being used here? And now there's a spike because just a few are faking? BASED ON WHAT CRITERIA? What is the test?
You have no clue what you're even talking about. You use terms that you don't even see mean absolutely nothing.
Rachel Dolezal says she "feels black." How is that any different from a man saying he "feels like" he's a woman? Why are you defending one as RARE, while she's just crazy and nobody "affirms" it?
This is pathetic.
And btw, no that's not what I'm getting at. Rachel Dolezal isn't black. And Bruce Jenner has XY chromosomes. He's not female and it doesn't matter how he feels about it. Same thing. End of story.
Excuse me. Gender Dysphoria IS the old diagnostic term, commonly used 50 years ago. I guess it sounded nicer than transsexualism. It was used in New York and at Stanford. I don't know where you were or if you had any relevant clinical experience. Maybe try reading textbooks of the period?
Transsexualism and Gender Dysphoria are essentially interchangeable terms. Years ago one had more of a stigma. Why do you suppose that is?
Gender-nonconforming is the safe, non-pejorative term for little children who don't act like what you think their typical sex roles should be. Ken Zucker used this to describe his "Gender Identity Disorder" in the DSM.
The 1/11,000 stat is based on figures from the Social Security Administration. As I wrote. It was done over ten years ago. I can find you a link for the study. Feel free to do an update. I doubt yours will be much different; rare conditions do not increase a hundredfold in a decade...unless we're talking about a new toxic waste zone!
Rachel Dolezal does not have any negro parents or grandparents. Everyone has male and female parents and grandparents. Is that simple enough?
You don't know Jenner's karyotype so don't pretend you do.
Stop jackassing.
I think if it’s true that those who may begin showing signs of being confused about their sexual identity also have other mental issues, it may be they are struggling to find a way too cope with pressure of outside forces who judge them in every possible way. If they read some of this discussion no wonder they run away from the influences of all of them once they are of age and can make their own decisions. I don’t have answers but I do know society snarling at them is not going to work and that is what is occurring and will cause a lot of tragedy as a result.
society was more than accepting of them before their narcissistic abuse of women started
More accurately, nobody gave a shit.
We definitely agree with this!
I am so sorry. This is such a painful thing for parents. Our almost 19 year old son expressed his gender distress 2 1/2 years ago. He has not taken any hormones. His social transition is only online. He hasn’t announced it broadly. So we are hopeful. But aware of what a slippery slope this is.
It is a very slippery slope. We have hope as other countries are beginning to reject it vehemently- but the US remains an outlier - the question is WHY?
Politics and Money would be my guess. It really saddens me. I live in the USA.
Healthcare in the USA is based on profit. “Gender treatment” is erroneously regarded as healthcare. Do the math.
Because the lion's share of American medicine is private and thus less subject to the whims of an ignorant, politicized bureaucracy. That's the positive side. The negative side is that Obamacare encouraged inexperienced clinicians to take up a specialty they don't understand and to irresponsibly offer services merely because insurance covers them. It's like dentists all trying to offer veneers and implants.
Dude, you proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that all white women everywhere are pedophiles. How are you still shpwing your face in public?
Same boat - opposite sexes - my daughter fell in love with a young man who believes he is a woman instead of a creative, gentle soul in a man’s body. Now my daughter is turning into the male in looks and hormones. You are not alone.
Sorry to hear about your son. Hope you have read some of the similar accounts from parents of inconvenient truths about trans website.
https://www.pittparents.com/
Nobody has a “gender identity” because it simply does not exist.
A male who “feels like” he’s female is suffering from a deeper problem which actually exists—autogynephilia, autism, depression, porn addiction. These men remain male because sex is binary and immutable.
There is no special category for those who refuse the reality of their sexed bodies. This is untreated mental illness, not a reality.
It shouldn’t be “affirmed” because it’s delusion. Nothing more.
I keep wondering how we are to make any sense at all of some male's assertion that he "feels like a woman" when he cannot possibly have any basis for identifying whatever it is he's feeling as "like a woman". I grew up in a stable, two parent, one of each, white working class family with no more than its fair share of rough patches. If, out of the blue, I claimed I "knew" what Black boys growing up in an impoverished, dysfunctional female headed single parent home in a crime ridden neighborhood might need, I'd be laughed out of the room. And rightly so.
This is the most sensible perspective. I am autistic. I never felt 'feminine' or 'masculine' but I did not have the childhood interests or proclivities most of the females around me did. Didn't play with dolls, preferred my brother's meccano to any dolls. No interest in Barbie. As an adolescent, loved sci-fi, star trek and was highly impressionable. Got behind new ideas 100%, based on crowd enthusiasm. From my perspective as a 60 year old, realize I am mildly autistic based on a lifetime of experience and how I respond to situations.No doubt would have been sucked into this whole scene, thank god it didn't exist back then. Vested interests. Useful idiots.
It's good that they have done this study. But it only confirms what is obvious to anyone with teenage children.
Thats so much to take from "outpatient billing data."
Can you explain what data was taken and how it was analyzed?
Your veneer of credibility (and the study's) drops further when you consider that most of your stats are just truisms. Of course gender dysphoria is being diagnosed at a higher rate than before. That doesn't mean in any way that there are more transpeople (by % of population) than before. It just means we recognize the condition and can diagnose it.
Would you really argue that PTSD is becoming more prevelant? Or would you consider that we've only been calling it ptsd for 40 years?
Would you say someone never had ptsd because they received treatment and recovered? I dont think you goons recognize that so much of gender affirming care concerns helping the person acertain how they feel and where their dysphoria originates from. No one is trying to convince anyone that they are trans. If anything, its the exact opposite. Y'all need to grow up.
I'm surprised to learn that affirming care is about finding the origin of gender dysphoria. Then how is it compatible with hormone treatments and surgery? Is it not a confirmation instead of an investigation of the origin of the problem?
I phrased that weird. What I should have said was "so much of gender affirming care is concerned with helping the person acertain and better understand how they feel. In some states, this involves speaking to psychologists and psychiatrists for hours. In the pursuit of understanding, sometimes a patient's gender dysphoria does get a "confirmation," as you put it. Sometimes it doesn't. I'm not really sure why I wrote "originates from" to be honest.
That being said, what do you mean by "Then how is it compatible with hormone treatments and surgery?"
I mean that these interventions are not mere Investigations...
Helping people understand how they feel is indeed very different than investigating where their feelings and thought come from ( and how they maintain themselves overtime).
I think we will all agree that feelings and emotions are not necessarily valid, true , or worth such radical social and physical interventions. So I was hoping there were indeed therapists who helped unroot such false thoughts when it comes to gender. But I obviously misunderstood you.
Who are you to call them false thoughts? What we all agree on is that some feelings and emotions are necessarily true and valid and worth very radical change. Next time you need a broken bone fixed, or need to get your eyes adjusted, don't. Those are just your feelings.
A human being like you. We are exchanging ideas here. I think the burden is on you to demonstrate that a person who is obviously a male for instance has a healthy thinking if he thinks he is a female. There's no way a chicken thinking he is a cat is thinking right. I'm not saying this because I can't understand, I can understand. I've been confused about my gender myself ( by the way someone even pointed to me today that I have a masculine energy, though I am a woman, that goes to say I had "reasons" to be confused). But I had to conform my thinking to the truth eventually.
PS : I don't think I understand the experience of every single person that experiences such thoughts and feelings. I just say that there is an objective and outside truth that can help cut through our thoughts.
Children can no more "consent" to have their healthy breasts and genitalia removed or take puberty blockers than they can
"consent" to have sex with an adult.
Similarly, parents and doctors can no more approve such permanent mutilation simply because a minor child desires it than they can approve pedophilia.
Ultimately society will see the truth and ban the practice as we have banned female genital mutilation. Do people support that practice if the parents consent? I truly hope not
It is monstrous to believe otherwise and those who do will ultimately be held to account for their actions.
But we have no issue believing they can and do give consent to other things, like breast augmentation at 16, with their parent's permission? Or a navel, nose, or other piercing? Even a tattoo, which has far greater regret rates than gender-affirming care (which does not always involve surgery, and almost never on a minor) Or when they need their appendix removed, or other procedures? Because they can give or withhold their assent, and the parents can give or withhold a legal informed consent. If a minor at 16, after a few meetings with their doctors and parents, persistently an repeatedly refuses to give their consent to a minor, non-life threatening procedure, everyone is pretty much gonna have to wait. The autonomy of the individual is respected and preserved. The older the minor is, the more this carries weight. The exception to this is if the if the treatment is deemed medically necessary and delaying or forgoing it would pose significant risks to the minor's health or well-being, then they can be overruled, for obvious reasons.
This is in no way comparable to FGM, in which the minor has no ability to deny the practice, their consent/assent is not even considered, and if they try to run from it or deny it, they will be physically forced to have it performed. Furthermore, FGM serves no medical benefit to the young person involved and carries great risk.
This is a false equivalence coupled with loaded language.
PITT: I am sure that you have read the Cass Review but on the outside chance you have not. Enjoy:
https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/
Yes, I have read it several times over. Thanks for linking it anyway.
Thank you for sharing this! It’s the start of changing lives. I’m hoping to package this up for the affirming therapist that my ex has brainwashing my daughter. Keep it up . Some of us will win ♥️
I wish the American Association of Pediatrics would take this to heart--along with the WPATH files and the Cass Report.
The AAP exists to promote and protect the interests of doctors. It is not a patient advocacy organization. Their primary interest will be protecting its members and the organization itself from lawsuits. If anyone is reading the Cass report and WPATH files, it is their lawyers looking for how to use what's in them to defend themselves against any legal liability.
One of the (many) issues with this ongoing challenge is that the people pushing for radical changes didn’t take the brains plasticity in youth into account.
The brain is opportunistically plastic during our youth and changes enormously over the course of its first two decades.
Making drastic and irreversible physical changes didn’t account for brain development.
Gender Identity Disorder is usually no more than GNC. It has nothing to do with transsexualism (or Gender Dysphoria, as it was called 50 years ago). It's about as relevant here as saying most people outgrow acne.
Thank you for this clarification. What is GNC ? Isn't Gender Identity Disorder a milder version of Gender Dysphoria?
No. Thing is, GID was applied mostly to children (it's a Ken Zucker diagnosis) whereas actual full-blown Gender Dysphoria (which really means transsexualism, NOT some kind of "discomfort" with one's "gender") cannot be diagnosed in children.
A moment's thought: you have 50 children in the room who are under the age of 10 and gender-nonconforming. How do you distinguish those who will end changing sex? You can't, and it's probably harmful to do so. It's even worse than saying that little kids are going to grow up to be gay. Let me go a step further: if there are kids around who are going to change sex, they're probably not even in the room, because their whole life revolves around hiding this fact.
Gender nonconformity is simple and usually harmless and anyone can do it. It's a stretch to call it a disorder. It is what it is, and doesn't mean anything else.
How do place the scale between gender discomfort and transsexualism. At one point does it become transsexualism? I'm not sure if you have the answer to that question but I am curious. Can we say both are the same phenomenon but one is reinforced and maintains itself over time while the other disappears?
This study should sit next to be WPATH files and the Cass report. These 3 documents must must must be made more available. People voting in the elections in the UK must ask the questions about gender to have confirmation from ALL parties about their political stance!
Interesting, if unsurprising. Thanks for making us aware of this study. Any idea what percentage of study subjects were lost to follow-up? (Many desisters simply stop seeing providers and thus billing insurance, so how would this study capture them? ) Also, being on the autism spectrum is consistently mentioned among co-morbidities, and I assume it was one of the conditions German researchers also identified.
This study doesn't differentiate people who had treatment or not. How many of the people that are no longer experiencing gender dysmorphia had treatment compared to those that "grew out of it"?
This is a missing piece for an accurate assessment.
I know more and more European countries are banning any medical procedures related to gender, for minors. It's starting to happen here in certain states. My best friend was a tom boy growing up. I talked to her recently and she said she probably would have tried to transition especially since in some places like NYC which is where we grew up, it's encouraged. Thanks for sharing. The more ppl understand it can truly be a phase, the better chance they won't make an irreversible decision that will have them in and out of hospitals and shorten their lives. Sabrinalabow.substack.com
Yeah, no shit. It’s just a fad.
Just like anything an idiot does, they’ll eventually find something else of equal stupidity to occupy their mind.
This is pure BS You have no way of knowing if the source of this study has any credibility whatsoever.
Just written for moronic "conservatives" who'll believe anything.